Not Exactly True Says New Study!

So I’m watching the GOP debate several weeks ago on MSNBC and while on break they ran an ad that completely blew my mind. It was an anti-immigration ad sponsored by, a group based in California. This wasn’t your typical anti-immigration ad, and what struck me, was the fact that the ad had nothing to do with the problem of “illegals” in California. Instead, the ad’s targeted issue was that of too many legal immigrants being in the state of California. Yeah, can you imagine that? I could understand taking issue with undocumented immigrants, but legal documented immigrants? I don’t know about you, but this sounds a bit crazy; especially when you consider the story of the first settlers on American soil. Check out the ad that has been running in recent weeks:

Now according to these fine Americans via their YouTube channel:

More legal immigrants reside and settle in California permanently than in any other state. The flow of workers has not stopped since the recession hit. The policy is having a particularly insidious effect in states like California, with millions unable to find a job and unemployment rates topping 12 percent. As a result, California has been forced to borrow $40 million a day from the federal government to pay unemployment benefits. At the same time, the Federal government continues to flood California with legal immigrants and temporary workers with no calls for an end to foreign workers in sight.

The TV ad, airing on both broadcast and cable networks, illustrates the lack of attention to legal foreign workers by first presenting the word “illegal”, since illegal immigrants has been the primary media focus. The spokesperson then separates the word “legal” out, saying, “But what about these workers; legal foreign workers?” The commercial ends by combining the letters to form the word “ill” to describe California’s economy and joblessness, partly attributable to legal and illegal immigration.

Now I’ve written about the immigration debate on many occasion. As an immigrant myself, this is indeed something near and dear to my heart. Having said that, it really irritates me when I see this played out in the media. Much of this garbage is in fact rooted in racism, and much of the propaganda is often void of facts. So, me being me, allow me to show you something which kills the noise. It’s something that I’be been saying forever, but yet and still, facts like the following are rarely brought to the table when it comes to any debate on immigration and policy.

According to study conducted by Economist Giovanni Peri, a professor at the University of California-Davis. There has been no negative effect on the wages of native-born Americans given the influx of immigrants, undocumented or otherwise. In fact, according to his study, in a new working paper for the National Bureau of Economic Research, the addition of highly skilled immigrants have positively impacted the wages of native-born Americans, According to his study, there is no correlation between the influx of immigrants, and poverty as is often believed. He concluded that immigration doesn’t increase the poverty rate by depressing the wages of low-income, native-born Americans and can actually decrease poverty when higher-skilled immigrants enter the workforce.

Here’s this from his report:

There is essentially no effect of immigration on native poverty at the national level. At the local level, only considering the most extreme estimates and only in some localities, we find non-trivial effects of immigration on poverty. In general, however, even the local effects of immigration bear very little correlation with the observed changes in poverty rates and they explain a negligible fraction of them.

Here’s a more detailed summary:

WASHINGTON — There is broad consensus among economists that immigration has a small but positive impact on the average income of Americans over the long term. But far less analysis has been done on the impact of immigrants on the labor market in the shorter term, particularly when viewed through the lens of the recession and its lingering labor market effects.

In a new Migration Policy Institute report, The Impact of Immigrants in Recession and Economic Expansion, University of California, Davis economist Giovanni Peri finds that immigration unambiguously improves employment, productivity and income but that it also involves some short-term adjustments (such as worker retraining or adoption of new technology).

The paper was commissioned to inform the work of MPI’s Labor Markets Initiative, which is conducting a comprehensive, policy-focused review of the role of legal and illegal immigration in the labor market.

The report, which examines short- and long-run impacts of immigration on average and over the business cycle of growth and contraction, finds that:

  • Immigrants do not reduce native employment rates over the long run (10 years), while increasing productivity and average income for native-born workers. Immigration to the United States over the 1990-2006 period can be credited with a 2.9 percent increase in real wages for the average U.S. worker.
  • The adjustment process, however, is not immediate. When immigration occurs during a downturn, the economy does not appear to respond as quickly as it would during economic expansions and there is evidence of modest negative impacts on employment and average income in the short run. These impacts dissipate over periods of up to seven years.
  • During periods of economic growth, by contrast, new immigration creates jobs in sufficient numbers to leave native employment unharmed even in the short run. This holds true even for less-educated workers. Immigration during economic expansions has no measurable, short-term negative effect on income per worker.

“Adjustments to employment, productivity and income are more difficult during downturns,” Peri said. “This suggests that the United States would benefit most from an immigration system that better adjusts to economic conditions, allowing legal immigrant inflows to be more responsive to the economic cycle.”

In the report, Peri suggests allowing employers’ demand for work visas to play a stronger role in determining the number of visas issued annually, and that a share of the visas be allocated to less-skilled workers, particularly those who perform primarily manual jobs that native workers increasingly are much less interested in filling.

“This report offers further evidence yet of the need for the immigration system to become significantly more responsive to the U.S. economy’s constantly evolving labor market needs, so that the benefits of immigration can be captured more fully and any negative effects neutralized,’’ said MPI President Demetrios Papademetriou. “Establishing an independent executive-branch agency that would make regular recommendations to the president and Congress for adjusting employment-based immigration levels would inject a greatly needed degree of flexibility into the current rigid immigration system.”

Oh well, I can keep repeating this stuff until the cows come home. The truth is, people still won’t believe it. They would rather take commercials like the one above at face value. In doing so, they’ll never ask who or what is actually behind such a commercial. Sadly, they’ll never see it as racist because with the face of immigrants being “those damn messikan fence jumpers,” they’ll seek solace in criminalizing them rather than seeing the economic value of immigration to this country. Bet hey, don’t tell that to the fine patriots who make up Californians For Population Stabilization.

It’s always convenient to blame the foreigners…

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RiPPa is the creator, publisher, and editor-in-chief of The Intersection of Madness & Reality. As a writer, he uses his sense of humor, sarcasm, and sardonic negro wit to convey his opinion. Being the habitual line-stepper and fire-breathing liberal-progressive, whether others agree with him, isn’t his concern. He loves fried chicken, watermelon, and President Barack Obama. Yes, he's Black; yes, he's proud; and yes, he says it loud. As such, he's often misunderstood.
  • Lorrie

    Your ideology is good but your statements are misguided and biased by the fact that you are an immigrant.  Understand that all immigrant issues are not equal, by state or according to race and to assume that all people who find issue with the legal and illegal immigration in the state of California are simply racists is an overstatement.  I am a black native of California and although I may not agree with the tactics used by conservatives to use this issue for the sake of politics or the manner in which the commercial was presented there remains a grain of truth.  I am not a conservative, I am a democrat but immigration is a problem for young black natives here in California whether you believe it or not or whether you accept it or not, that does not change the facts that the sheer population and numbers of Latinos and no policy in place to deal with the now bilingual workforce, California has in effect a workforce that is primarily Latino for all entry level positions, union jobs and mom and pop stores.  Would I prefer whites to have all the jobs and entry level positions?  Not necessarily but at least I would have a chance because I speak English.  I took Latino studies in my undergraduate studies, I grew up in schools from middle school to college with Latinos, I live in a neighborhood with Latinos, I learned to speak Spanish conversationally, I can even pass tests for job entry in Spanish, I have a degree is Bilingual Cross Cultural studies, but what I learned in these classes from Latin instructors is that it was not about teaching history but about activism at the expense of blacks.  I am not racists, I went to college thinking I was going to find a brother in the struggle but instead I found that they themselves hated other Latinos with dark skin.  The University of Santa Barbara has a great multicultural program for Latinos that crank out great activists but most of them namely the instructors seek to erase the blood of Africans that runs through their very veins educationally.  They teach these Latino students that they are Latino but European or Mestizo – basically white.  The Lations who have been here for generations look down on the Latinos who are 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation.  The fight for power in California is not just about having the jobs it is also about controlling the poor, the dark skinned, having access to white opportunity and assimilation.  You are missing the point.  I live it everyday.  Take a closer look at what is going on in Los Angeles, the school district, council representation etc.  Latinos are not just saying, hey can we just work and be with our families, they are saying, we don’t have to speak English if we don’t have to, we don’t want to be associated with dark skinned people even if they do speak Spanish, we don’t even have to want to be American, we think blacks are overrepresented, we want their few jobs, we want our policies and hey the black population is actually shrinking they need to step back now and let us be in charge.  These are Latinos that benefited from policies that black people fought for.  They are currently attempting to use the 1965 Voting Rights Act in order to force blacks to be unseated from office.  La Raza is uniting with Jewish Leagues and they do NOT see the black man as a brother. They see the black man as a block or hinderance to power and access.  Immigration is far more advance and unique in the state of California than it is in say Georgia.  I suggest you take a closer look at the issue as it relates to BLACK people before you jump on a bandwagon because the issue is much more complex than that. 

  • I’m an immigrant from the Caribbean who grew up in New York City – the epitome of said cultural melting pot. I am also Black, and be that as it may. I am fully aware of just how colorism and class intersects. However, from a purely economic perspective the benefits of immigration far outweighs the ill=concieved notions adopted by many. You right, I don’t know about California. However, I know in NYC nobody is bitching about Spanish, or any other European speaking in a foreign language. But I’d like to know just how the influx of immigrants (legal & otherwise) has affected Blacks?

    How are they a threat?

  • Typical bullshit: using anecdotal evidence in order to extrapolate a generality. Fallacious thinking in tune with bigotry.

    This one is sweet, as it depends on the same boogiemen/ myths used by white nationalists: La Raza and bilingual studies. The bullshit that Latin@s refuse to learn English, when the FACT is that today’s Latin@s are learning English at better rates than previous immigrants.

    SHOW me where, as you put it, Latin@s:disqus  are saying they don’t need to learn English.

    The line, “I’m not a conservative… ” is a lot like saying “Some of my best friends are black.” It’s, well, as we say in Spanish, mierda.

    I would also challenge the notion that Latin@s are taking away entry-level jobs from native born Americans since almost every empirical study I have looked at says the opposite.

    The irony here is that a self-professed black person is adopting the same language and bigotry used by whiter nationalists. Fuck you.

    I’m of Puerto Rican descent, and my people were fighting against racism and inequality for a long fuckin time. civil rights isn’t a BLACK issue, it’s a human rights issue.

    I’ll be waiting for any CREDIBLE empirical sources that back up your overheated rhetoric.

  • AndJusticeForAll

    The irony here is that a self-professed black person is adopting the same “language and bigotry used by whiter nationalists. Fuck you.”
    Typical Leftist name calling and vulgarity ends the discussion of very “transparent” Views.

    The real world begs to differ with your “fallicious studies”.   Just check the most recent example. Alabama implimented immigration law to enforce existing immigration laws and what do you know, unemployment fell by 2% in just a couple of months.   It is ridiculous to think the U.S economy can support an open ended number of job seekers and or unlimited taxpayer benefits.   How many people can you support in your home? Are you racist for limiting the amount of people you ask to live with you and that you are willing to support?

    Not sure how, but I managed to put forward an opinion without one vulgarity, personal attack and so on. I guess I am not lying and insecure and don’t have to attack to have a conversation.

  • PLEASE! I’ve seen the anti-immigrant spam about the so-called drop in AL unemployment. Here’s the thing: what these WHITE nationalists don’t say is that the reason unemployment has  declined in the last month is because, AS IN EVERY YEAR,
    thousands of seasonal jobs (Thanksgiving-Christmas) are available now.

    Secondly why do you think that Alabama republicans are talking about
    “reviewing the law” in the next legislative session? They know the farm
    business is collapsing.

    Long-term studies by various researchers over a period of time show that immigrant labor has a POSITIVE effect on the economy. IN FACT, during the 90s the large wave of immigration is linked to sustained economic growth and the lowest rates of unemployment.

    Based on a thorough review of the literature, the Council concluded
    that “immigrants not only help fuel the Nation’s economic growth, but
    also have an overall positive effect on the American economy as a whole
    and on the income of native-born American workers.” Among the report’s key findings were that, on average, U.S. natives
    benefit from immigration.

    Finally, you must THINK you have big cojones complaining about “vulgarity” after spouting one long disjointed paragraph replete with vulgarities and stereotypes about Latina/os in general.

    Your whole screed is a vulgarity. If you’re black, then you remind me of the David Chappelle character: the blind, white supremacist, who doesn’t know he’s black.

  • Oh! And your assertion about how things are in California is pure bullshit. The FACTS say Immigrant workers tend to
    increase employment rates among the native-born. According to a Pew
    Hispanic Center study, from 2000 -2004 “there was a positive
    correlation between the increase in the foreign-born population and the
    employment of native-born workers in 27 states and the District of

    California, for example, saw an INCREASE in wages of natives by about
    four percent from 1990 to 2004 — a period of large influx of immigrants to
    the state — due to the complimentary skills of immigrant workers and an
    increase in the demand for tasks performed by native workers.

    It seems to me that you don’t have a good grasp of reality or how to properly explore/ understand a complex issue. This from someone who erroneously castigates Latin@s for not wanting to learn English?!! You were the smartest sperm?

    Responding to bigoted and ignorant assertions about the immigration to be counterproductive.

  • The hell are you doing bringing facts into this for? Smh

  • Lorrie

    Understand when I say a threat. I mean
    a threat to the minority of blacks that populate the Southern California Los
    Angeles suburbs I live in, specifically in the area of the accessibility of work/jobs.  NOT the availability of work but access.

    In Southern California it is not
    several different types of immigrants, it is one major type –
    Latino. We are a hop skip and a jump from Mexico and other parts of
    South America. We are connected by land mass. People dont fly or
    swim here, they walk or drive. In New York, it is my assumption there are
    evenly divided communities of various ethnicities and they are an
    older city and state that has had to figure out how to deal with the
    influx of different ethnicities over the years and how to live together while maintaining economic viability.  New York is comprised of several groups of people, not a major influx of one type that speak primarily the same language other than English. Southern California for years has
    been white with a few minorities. Blacks have fought to be heard and
    allowed equal employment opportunities her- this has been an ongoing struggle that no one really cares about.

    They are a threat because they give
    business to their own and the blacks who live out here do not have
    enough numbers to simply give ourselves enough business to survive,
    in my county we only represent barely 1% of the population. We are
    the super minority. They are a threat because, even when you
    demonstrate respect for their culture and an interest and desire to
    learn their language many of them reject your efforts, they are a
    threat because many jobs I qualified for and got to the last
    interview for I was looked over because I was not Latino, they are a
    threat because it is the same message I have heard from whites for
    all of my life, I am not good enough but instead of not being good
    enough because Im black, Im not good enough because I am NOT Latino.
    THAT is racist. To add insult to injury most of those entry level
    positions I spoke of that Latinos have – guess what?? Many of them
    don’t even speak English at all and if they do it is broken. How is
    that fair? How are my rights as a native being protected? I didnt
    go to college for 8 years to get $50,000 worth of school loans with
    no way to pay them back, to be blocked from getting a job with health
    benefits and watch uneducated LEGAL immigrants drive around in
    Escalades, purchase homes while I toil and stress about next months rent working a job getting paid a students salary. Where is
    my American Dream?? When will America seek to ensure the Dream of
    those who already live here? I did what I was supposed to do but I
    still live in poverty where is the economic equality in that??

    Which community would you say suffers
    the most economically in New York? Would it be blacks? This is the
    issue I speak towards. I am not addressing broad percentages that
    includes whites to be frank.  I understand your point and I do not condone the crazy policies passed by Arizona and Alabama but I think an intelligent discussion needs to happen to address all concerns right now regarding jobs and immigration, because there is truth on both sides, keeping in mind that everyone has valid points and everyone is not going to agree.

  • Lorrie

    You can challenge me all you want, you
    can cuss all you want and you can demand statistics all you want but
    I am not here to prove anything to you. My experience is unique to
    me. Latinos themselves have told me their refusal to speak English,
    friends who tell me family members who have said such, an
    ex-boyfriend of mine told me that we would have never got together if
    I didnt speak Spanish because he had no desire to learn English. I
    do not appreciate ignorance no matter who the source. I am racists
    because I want some job security? Because I point out the obvious?
    I must be lying because you have never experienced what I
    experienced? You have never heard this before so I must be borrowing
    from white supremists? I cannot think for myself because you say so?
    My experience for the last 29 years progressively is marginalized,
    minute, null and void because I cannot give you facts from a biased
    source? I did not say jobs were being taken away from Americans, I
    said jobs were being taken from BLACKS. There is a difference.

    When I refer to not being able to get
    entry level jobs. I am not addressing broad percentages that
    includes whites to be frank. Statistics serve those who crank them
    out. I am specifically referring to blacks only as it relates to
    Latinos and how their language serves as a social barrier in Southern
    California because that is where I live. California is unique in
    that the majority of immigrants are Latino. To add to this, as a
    group the majority of the poorer immigrants either 1. dont have time
    to learn English, (because they are working hard/migrant/tired/etc)
    2. refuse to learn English (because of general animosity towards
    America and this does exist/understandable) or 3. dont have the
    resources to do so (which is common). Whatever the reasons, because
    our laws dictate that all public services be accessible to all, most
    entry level positions that service the public, whether it is medical
    clinics, human services, phone services, customer service at all
    retail stores, stock room managers, kitchen cooks and sou chefs, loan
    officers in banks, bank tellers, union jobs such as harbor work and
    even the cashier jobs at every fast food restaurant, require Spanish
    speaking persons working those positions. Antedotal or not. I can
    only speak from my experience, what I see everyday and how it effects
    me and that is the bias we all share. In Southern Califronia, it is
    like 55% white, 33% Latino and not even 5% black. Thats a rough
    guess, based upon previous research – not exactly accurate but
    close. IN other words blacks are the minority in every way. So even
    as an educated black person I am now witnessing that even with a
    degree, being partially fluent in the language, experienced and
    skilled in many things that does not get me the job. Even though it
    is technically illegal to say “Spanish speaking required” for any
    job, the jobs will say “Spanish preferred” or “Bilingual a
    plus” or “Spanish exam required” etc. I have had several
    interviewers say, they only want someone who is fluent in spanish and
    to their surprise I pass their language assesment tests only for them
    to come up with a reason why they chose another candidate over me. I
    am not talking about initial interviews, I mean after two or three
    interviews and I am on of the top two or three at the last interview
    and then I find out they hire someone who is less qualified but is
    Latino. Many times the interviewers are Latino. The worst part is,
    many Latinos who are not second or third generation dont speak
    Spanish either but they are allowed to learn on the job because it is
    expected they know the language and I have witnessed this on several
    occasions, they are taken aback when they see a black person being
    international – we are expected to take a back seat as if we are
    supposed to be ignorant uneducated and non-bilingual and I dont
    accept it, one interviewer gasped when I spoke Spanish to her during
    a mandatory oral exam. One department head said he would not give me
    the job because he wanted someone Latino for the position because his
    assumption was that a Latino would do it better and he was black.
    Another black person I know who is a manager said she feels she
    should only hire Latinos for a call center she runs because they
    would understand the nuiances of the language better while she
    admitted that some of her Latin employees dont all know the language
    that well but are learning it. I am not racist, they are. My
    brother is a plumber and he used to work with a Latino plumber,
    because some jobs are too big to do alone, so the guy stole some of
    his clients and then shut him out, other plumbers will do the work
    with their families for hunderds less than the work should be done
    for and in addition to that many Latinos will pretend not to speak
    English when he is negotiating and not give him business. If we live
    in an area that is primarily Latino and the numbers have only
    dramatically increased in the last 10 years and where you grew up and
    know and love doesnt love you and all you want to do is work and live
    like everyone else why should we feel guilty and speak up about what
    we are experiencing?? Latinos here, where we live also call
    themselves white and many check that they are white on the censuses.
    The statistics that the government uses are based upon self reported
    numbers. Those numbers are not accurate or verifiable but are used
    to create reports to justify all kinds of things. If a Latino who
    considers themselves white gets into a position of influence do you
    think they care about what black people want? Do you realize that
    Latinos hate other Latinos who are dark skinned? Do you think
    Latinos care that unemployment disproportionately effects black
    people? Hell no. The first and second generation Latinos who are
    fighting for a living, DO deserve basic rights but that is not the
    end of the story. How do we as blacks fight so that our voices
    remain heard? How do we ensure that our children are not the ones
    continually left behind as every ethnicity jumps ahead of us?

  • Lorrie

    Thank you.  I agree.  I appreciate your transparency, not just anger, hate talk, profanity and bullying.  We all  have a story and they all need to be heard.  I have been carrying that burden too long alone.  That is what these blogs are for, to share opinion whether we disagree or not.  I can agree that legal and illegal immigrants deserve basic rights if our farmers are inviting them here to work but everything needs guidelines, rules and order and right now, our immigration laws are outdated and do not address the real issues we face right now.

  • Lorrie

    No one said immigration was bad or that it did not benefit America.  That was not the issue being discussed here.  You are right seasonal migrant work can account for employment fluctuations in AG areas however, even when I was down on my luck and wanted to get a blue collar job, I was not able to get it because the Latino immigrants are willing to do it for much much less, so little I could not survive on it.  Dont forget that only two generations ago my parents were farm workers, they picked cotton and grapes and I am not above it.  So get off your soap box like oh whoa to all the immigrants as if native Americans have it so damn good because we dont.  We should not be pitted against one another but having reasonable discussions about our fears, our experiences and our struggles.

  • Lorrie

    “Native born” who?  Native born blacks? or Native born whites?  If I had time I would read the damn report and show you the holes in it, but instead I will say BULLSHIT, just like you did to me.  Quote the “Hispanic Center Study” all you want, but in basic college research methods you learn that statistics serve those who create them.  Who created that statistic? and for what reason?…Duh

  • Numbers don’t lie, and speaking of methodology, there are peer reviewed, no? Native born means just that – PEOPLE BORN IN AMERICA! Speaking of which, here another useless statistic: 80% of the children of undocumented immigrants are born in America.

  • You know? Knoweldge is what will set you free. there ARE MANY reasoins for the economic plight of African Americans and other people of color, BUT THE FACT is that immigration is NOT one of them.


    And you must be a real dumb fuck if you  say bullshit to something you have NEVER read or attempted to understand. THAT is WILLFUL ignorance and you should be ashamed of yourself because We have people in our past who died so you can go to school.

  • Opinions are WORTHLESS if they aren’t vetted by rigorous intellect.

    Secondly, your anger at your bullshit “load” shouldn’t be directed at immigrants. You’re no different than white bigots and the anti-immigrant crowd whose efforts are really about making immigrants thew scapegoats.

    That’s what YOU’RE doing, looking for scapegoats and it’s bigoted, ignorant, and baseless.

    Until you can actually bring something other than your poorly formed opinions, you should just STFU.

  • In order to have a “reasonable” discussion, YOU first HAVE to be REASON — by way of facts and critical thinking — to the discussion. All you are doing is spewing stereotypes that I have shown have no basis in FACT.

    And you have a lot of fuckin nerve talking about unity when it is your overheated, self-serving rhetoric that creates division to begin with. Want to find out what’s really fuckin African Americans around? Start incarceration rates and how the increased costs associated with the prison/ industrial complex are closely related to a decrease in education funding. START THERE. But stop the bullshit Latin@ bashing.

    Oh yeah, I would LOVE to see you “blow holes” through any of the studies I’ve posted here. And PLEASE don’t come here with shit from the Tanton Network because I’ll tear that shit up.

  • Actually, if you had BOTHERED to read even the abstracts or the EXECUTIVE summaries, you would see that the studies address the question you raise. You THINK you have this argument by the throat, when in actuality you’re barely nipping at its cuff.

    low-wage workers include blacks disproportionately and there’s NO evidence that immigration adversely affects black people. NONE.

    If you can’t get an entry level job after getting a degree, if you can’t beat out a Latin@ who can’;t even speak English, as you say, then there’s something wrong with YOU. You know why? BECAUSE FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE, THIS ISN’T THE CASE.

    Like I said, you’re like that David Chappelle character, the blind white supremacist who doesn’t know he’s black.

  • Please don’t be an idiot. New York happens to be one of the immigrant portals of the WORLD. We have a HUGE Latino population here, with the largest increase being Mexicans. We have HUGE Dominican, Colombian, south American, Asian populations.

    this is just another instance in which you pull yet another hair out of your ass and try to pass it off as insight.

    AFAIC, you’re just a fuckin ignorant bigot.

  • Lorrie

    Your point exactly?  I am talking about blacks and jobs, not splitting hairs over the definition of native born.  Yes, the children of immigrants are native born citizens.    You are making my point for me.  I am not the enemy just because I dont agree with you.  Nor does it make me racist.  Americans are all different ethnicities and races just as immigrants are.  I am not against immigration.

  • Lorrie

    Immigration does contribute to the marginalization of blacks especially the large influx that we have had for the last 10 years.  I never said I didnt read anything on the subject.  I said I didnt need to prove anything to you.  I have six degrees, I have done much research and I studied history, culture and language of Latinos in my undergraduate studies.  My professors are the ones who pushed the ideologies I discussed regarding Latinos and blacks.  I did not make that up.  They would say that the black population is shrinking, that blacks are the enemy, that we are blocking their access, that blacks do not have a right to be in the positions they are in and that Latinos should advocate to attack them first in their struggle to rise up when blacks were the ones who fought for their right to be there in the first place.  They are attempting to use the very law 1965 Voting Rights Act to attempt to unseat blacks in Los Angeles now.  All you have are your so called facts written by Hispanic activists who have an agenda.  Do you even live in Southern California?  I know why hispanics call themselves Huero and Huera and it is not because they love dark skin.  Dont try to preach to me with your skewed statistics and dont think that because you cuss at me I will back down.  Question: why do you identify yourself as “BlueEyes”?

  • Have you seen the unemployment rate for Hispanics? Please believe, it’s a lot closer to that of Black folks than it is for white folks. You know, sorta in the same way they’re over-represented in the criminal justice system?

  • Lorrie

    I have already done that research too and you are right the Three Strikes Law is a great contributor to the disenfranchisement of blacks (specifically men) in California and that is another sore spot.  I never said immigration was the onlye issue.  It is one of the issues where I LIVE.  I dont have time to do extra research to prove you wrong, that is not what I am here for, sorry to disappoint you.  Your reasoning has been primitive to say the least.  Your form of communication includes sputtering stats, cussing and anger.  Nothing reasonable will ever come form that.  I have presented my experience knowing that I would face opposition but it does not make any less true or any less real.  What I have told is fact whether you accept it or not.  Huero con ojos azules…whatever!

  • Lorrie

    Yes, that is what Latinos and whites would have me to believe that since we (as blacks) cannot come up with a reason why we cannot get a job that Latino employers are hiring ONLY Latinos for, then it must be us.  It has to be us.  I am so wrong.  I am so deserving of being unemployed because I have an opinon that does not agree with blue yes, right? Pleaeeease.    I dont hink I have any arguement.  As a matter of fact I was not attempting to debate or prove you anything as I have stated previously.  I was sharing my experience.  In addition to that, I never said NY was like California, I actually said the opposite.  I am aware of the cultural melting pot that exists in NY, and?  I find it funny and ironic that a puerto rican that identifies himself as EddieBlueEyes has the nerve to call someone black a blind white supremacist.

  • Lorrie

    I am not angry and I will not be silenced.

  • Yeah, I have BLUE EYES and I am a LATINO of Puerto Rican descent and so-the-fuck-what?

    And yeah, I’m calling you out on YOUR bigotry because you’re spewing out STEREOTYPES against MY people. You sound JUST LIKE the anti-immigrant, anti-Latino/a white supremacists who spew hatred and bigotry all over the internet and on the media.

    So go fuck yourself on that guilt bullshit.

    You just want to shit on Latino/as and when you get smacked on your bullshit you cry that you’re being marginalized. Well, I’m sick and tired of Black people and other people of color expressing their own internalized racism and projections and then wearing the “I’m black” flag.

    Fuck You.

    All this time, you haven’t bothered to actually quantify ANYTHING you have stated here. SHOW me where Latino/as are stopping YOU from work on a systemic level. PLEASE.

    I have posted DOCUMENTED examples, empirical evidence that your POV is factually incorrect.

    And yeah, I’m calling you out because you’re using the same language and hate-mongering that WHITE supremacists use in order to bask LATINO/A immgrants.

    Shit, I can post studies that show there are BLACK business owners that won’t hire other blacks.

  • But you WILL be corrected and challenged.

  • PLEASE show where these studies — which are just a fraction of a HUGE body of work showing your assertion is wrong — please show us where these studies are invalid.

    YOU keep repeating yourself, but you don’t offer any proof. It’s as if you expect me to take YOUR work on what is essentially a bigoted POV.

    If you say you studied this, then you should be able to back it up. Otherwise you’re just a bigot.

    As for colorism, that exists in ALL ethnicities and races. What? You think BLACKS don’t buy into colorism?!!

    What does that have to do with your assertion that immigrants cause black economic problems. PLEASE. You’re bragging that you studied this, that your own professors put this shit into your narrow fuckin head, PLEASE share that knowledge.

    Or maybe you’re just a blind bigot.

  • Lorrie

    Not by you.  I have found no real challenge to the things I have experienced.  You have not addressed any of the antedotes I brought up.  You have not conceeded that some of the things I mentioned actually do hapen.  Flat denial  deomstrates your lack of ability to understand someone elses experience simply because it didnt happen to you. 

  • Lorrie

    Whatever.  Just because you shout that I am a bigot, doesnt mean I am one.  Further more, I do work, so I do not have time to do research for an obviously self serving Latino activist who cant see past his own anger to see what I am trying to say.  I did share with you what the instructors taught in those Latin study classes, did you want a transcript?  Names of the professors?  Name of the college?  At least I have the decency to use my real name online and dont identify myself with a body part that insinuates whiteness.  I am not ashamed, I stand behind what I say.  What exactly is your credential?

  • Lorrie

    You have not corrected or challenged me.  Only cussed, yelled and insulted me (I have done neither- personal insults have no place in public opinioin forums) .  Two Puerto Rican sisters (one I worked with, one worked at a local college) I knew in this area was so afraid to be associated with black people even though they looked just like me, they made it a point to speak Spanish everytime I came around and did not want to say hello when I waved at them, turned their head the other way when they see me coming, why?  Because they didnt want to be associated with black people – even though they themselves were brown skinned with tight curly hair.  The only difference between them and me was that they were born in their native land and were raised speaking another language.  It was not just me other blacks experienced the same thing with the same family, so is it every black person?  We should blame oursleves?  So colorism is not real?  If colorism is real, which we both know it is, then there is a problem and yes immigration contributes to it.  If there are 100 puerto rican families that treat blacks the same way as that one did and they controlled access to employment, you think job discriminiation does not happen?  Give me a break.

  • Actually, all you have done is SAY you studied “Latins” and that certain professors embedded their “ideology” into your narrow brain. If you actually “studied” this issue, you should have no problem posting a citation or a link to an empirical, peer-reviewed study showing a direct correlation between immigration and African American rates of employment. the correlation is actually the reverse, but just for argument’s sake PLEASE post a study from an empirical source that backs up your claims. Othewise your views are just bigoted, unfounded claims. your

  • People should be very careful, and understand who are the racist orgs who fund the anti-immigration movement: Take a second to read for yourself just who they are:

    The sponsor of Arizona’s new “Papers, please” immigration is law is Republican State Sen.Russell Pearce, a politician who was caught on tape hugging a neo-Nazi.
    But if you want to meet the guy who’s taking credit for writing the new law, that would be Kris Kobach, a birther who’s running for secretary of state in Kansas. His campaign Website brags, “Kobach wins one in Arizona.” He’s also an attorney for the Immigration Reform Law Institute, the legal arm of an immigration group called FAIR, the Federation for AmericanImmigration Reform.
    FAIR was founded in 1979 by John Tanton, who’s still listed as a member of FAIR’s board of directors. Seven years after he started FAIR, Tanton wrote this, “To govern is to populate. Will the present majority peaceably hand over its political power to a group that is simply more fertile? As whites see their power and control over their lives declining, will they simply go quietly into the night or will there be an explosion?”
    For nine of the first years of FAIR’s existence, the group reportedly received more than $1 million in funding from something called the Pioneer Fund. The Pioneer Fund describes itself as based “in the Darwinian-Galtonian evolutionary tradition and eugenics movement.” For the last 70 years, the Pioneer Fund has funded controversial research about race and intelligence, essentially aimed at proving the racial superiority of white people. The group’s original mandate was to promote the genes of those “deemed to be descended predominantly from white persons who settled in the original 13 states prior to the adoption of the Constitution.”
    Tanton’s organization, FAIR, claims credit for writing Arizona’s new immigration law. The link between Fair and the Pioneer Fund makes sense, especially after you read more of Tanton’s writing, like this: “I’ve come to the point of view that for European-American society and culture to persist requires a European-American majority and a clear one at that.”
    In 1997, John Tanton told the Detroit Free Press that America will soon be overrun by illegal immigrants “defecating and creating garbage and looking for jobs.”
    Today, FAIR makes a living off of suing local and state governments over immigration laws.Tucked inside Article VIII of Arizona’s new law is a provision that if groups like them win their cases, a judge may order that the entity “who brought the action recover court costs and attorney fees” — which could create a nice financial boon for an outfit once funded by people determined to advance an agenda of eugenics and a perpetual white majority.

  • If you don’t know what I mean when I ask for evidence, then you either BOUGHT your degree or you’re lying. Perhaps this is part of the reason why you can’t compete against even the dumbest, non-English-speaking Latino/as on the planet.

  • Learn of the political influence of the racists at The Pioneer Fund:

    Our recent information showing how discredited racist sources were cited in The Bell Curve might make it appear as though organizations such as the Pioneer Fund are simply lunatic fringe groups, with little or no influence on public policy. It should be clear that his is not the case, given that much of the racists’ platform — ending welfare programs, restricting immigration, cutting funds to compensatory education programs, scaling back affirmative action programs in employment and education, limiting school integration — is being enacted or seriously considered.

    The key figure in the Pioneer Fund nexus is Roger Pearson. He is one of the main PF recipients ($787,400 as of 1993) and is editor of two important racist journals: The Mankind Quarterly (articles from which are frequently cited in The Bell Curve) and The Journal of Social, Political and Economic Studies (which has published racist articles by Jensen, Levin, Gottfredson, and other PF recipients). Pearson is the linchpin of the whole racist operation, and is well – connected to influential fascist forces in the U.S. and worldwide. A book Old Nazis, the New Right, and the Republican Party, by Russ Bellant, who provides the following information:

    The Northern League, for which Pearson was the London-based organizer in 1958, was a “white supremacist European organization that included former Nazi SS officials.” In 1959, Willis Carto, founder of the racist and anti-semitic Liberty Lobby, arranged a speaking tour for Pearson in the U.S. Carto’s magazine, Right, called Pearson “the world’s foremost spokesman for the scientific and forward-looking view of nationalism. He is held in renown by white nationalists the world over.” Pearson moved to the U.S. in 1965 in order to edit Western Destiny, a Carto publication whose editorial board included well-known racists and anti-Semites, including Austin App, the pro-Nazi leader of the German American National Congress (DANK) who wrote The Six Million Swindle, which claims the holocaust never happened. Pearson published four racist monographs during this time, one of which was called Race and Civilization, which stated that it was based on the ideas of Hans F.K. Gunther, who was a leading racial theoretician for the Third Reich, and who later worked with Pearson organizing the Northern League. In his 1966 book Eugenics and Race, Pearson wrote: “If a nation with a more advanced, more specialized, or in any way superior sets of genes mingles with, instead of exterminating, an inferior tribe, then it commits racial suicide….” It’s no wonder that Pearson’s monographs are still sold by neo-Nazi groups today.
    In spite of, or perhaps because of, his fascist past, Pearson became an influential political player when he moved to Washington, D.C. in 1975. He became the editor of the American Security Council’s Journal of International Relations and served on the board of the ASC’s American Foreign Policy Institute. The ASC was formed and run by retired military officers, corporate executives, and conservative politicians to promote a program of heavy military spending, support for cold war policies, aid to the Nicaraguan contras and UNITA in Angola, etc. Its political arm is the Coalition for Peace Through Strength, whose constituent organizations have ties to the fascist right, which Bellant details. The ASC was a highly influential organization during the Reagan and Bush administrations, with close ties to the military, the National Security Council, and State Dept. officials. Pearson’s co-editors on the ASC’s journal was James Angleton, former CIA deputy director for counterintelligence, and Robert Richardson, a retired Air Force general later revealed to be aiding gunrunning to Libya. So Pearson moved in high governmental and political circles.
    During this time Pearson became associated with the Heritage Foundation, a right-wing think tank influential in forming Reagan administration policy. Pearson was close to Edwin Fuelner, president of the Heritage Foundation, and joined the editorial board of Policy Review, the monthly HF magazine. In turn HF official Stuart Butler and editorial board member Ernest van den Haag (the long time writer for the National Review, who has publicly stated his opposition to school integration and support for Shockley’s sterilization proposals), joined the advisory committee of Pearson’s Journal of Social, Political and Economic Studies.
    In 1978, as the head of U.S. chapter of the World Anti-Communist League, Pearson hosted the WACL conference in Washington, D.C. The Washington Post ran an article about fascists and neo-Nazis in the WACL, and named Pearson as a leading recruiter of fascist elements. Yet four years later, Pearson received a personal letter from President Reagan stating “Your substantial contributions to promoting and upholding those ideals and principles that we value at home and abroad are greatly appreciated.” Pearson used this as a fundraising letter for his JSPES. Talk about friends in high places!
    Pearson and the Pioneer Fund have close connections to Jesse Helms. Sam Crutchfield has been the lawyer for a number of Helms’ organizations, as well as Pearson’s Institute for the Study of Man, which publishes The Mankind Quarterly and is heavily funded by the Pioneer Fund. Crutchfield also sits on the advisory committee of Pearson’s JSPES.
    According to Bellant, Pearson, an Englishman, also has ties to right-wing British aristocrats. Lord Malcolm Douglas was part of an aristocratic circle known as the Cliveden Set, who was sympathetic to the Nazis and sought to get Britain out of the war. (This group should be familiar to anyone who has seen the film Remains of the Day.) Malcolm was the brother of the aristocrat who invited Rudolph Hess, a top aide to Hitler, to secretly fly to England to meet with the Cliveden Set. Unfortunately for the upper class Nazi admirers, Hess was arrested and spent the rest of his life in jail. Lord Malcolm Douglas eventually came to the U.S. and established the American branch of the International Association for the Advancement of Ethnology and Eugenics (IAAEE), which published The Mankind Quarterly. (Bellant states that the oil billionaire Hunt brothers and Jesse Helms are members of the IAAEE.) For years. MQ listed its publisher as the Cliveden Press.
    Pearson, a former anthropology professor, has plenty of academic ties as well. In the mid- 1980’s, Pearson was elected head of the University Professors for Academic Order, a conservative faculty group formed in reaction to anti-Vietnam War campus protests of the 1960’s and ’70’s. Pearson has been quite a busy fascist, and in 1990 began to edit a third journal, The Conservative Review. Pearson maintains close ties with European racists, and is a board member of Nouvelle Ecole, which Bellant calls “a French highbrow neo-Nazi group.”
    The November 1994 of GQ magazine carried an article on the Pioneer Fund. The article is politically very weak, but it has an interesting story about Pearson and the 1978 WACL conference which he was in charge of:

    At one point during the proceedings, Pearson noticed two men distributing what The Post termed “anti-Jewish tracts,” as well as reprints from the Thunderbolt, a newspaper of the avowedly racist National States Right Party (NSRP). Pearson asked them to leave, though not before telling them that he was “sympathetic with what you’re doing.” He added: “But don’t embarrass me and cut my throat.” As they left, he asked them to “give [his] regards” to NSRP chief Edward Fields, The Post reported.
    Today, the Thunderbolt is called The Truth At Last. It is still published by Edward Fields, who leads a white supremacist and neo-Nazi group called the America First Party. In a recent issue of The Truth At Last the lead two-page article is entitled Bell Curve Proves Racial IQ Differences, with photos of Charles Murray and William Shockley. Inside the paper, they advertised Pearson’s Race, Intelligence and Bias in Academe (a book which attacks Progressive Labor Party, Students for a Democratic Society, and International Committee Against Racism for its campaigns against racist scholars such as Jensen and Shockley), as well as Shockley’s On Eugenics and Race, edited by Pearson. Also advertised are IQ and Racial Differences, a racist tract by former Pioneer Fund director Henry Garrett, as well as the Deluxe edition of The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion (the famous anti-semitic forgery), with a 150-page introduction by industrialist Henry Ford.

    It’s pretty clear that Pearson and the Pioneer Fund are connected to a larger movement, international in scope, which not only wishes to roll back the gains of the civil rights movement, but which seeks another try at the Third Reich.

  • Generalizing from “anecdotal” (not antidote) evidence is worthless. In order for your claim to have validity, it must be PROVEN. It must be FACTUAL. For example, I might have a sorry debate with someone who studied in Cali and find the person did a piss-poor job of backing up their claims. ANECDOTALLY, I can say people with Cali degrees are some dumb motherfuckers, but is that a VALID assertion?

    This is what you’re doing to a WHOLE group of people. It’s bigoted, narrow-minded and offensive.

    I don’t really give a fuck about your personal experiences, but I do care that you’re using your hate to stereotype MY people. From my perspective, you’re no different than a white supremacist, except in that you’re black.

  • Oh, let us be clear here: the ONLY one who has posted empirical evidence to back up their assertions has been ME. All this nonsense and you haven’t even been able to post a link or even address the evidence that completely destroys your bigoted worldview.

    that I call you a dumb fuck in the process, is just extra.

  • Lorrie

    I hate to say it but your stupid.  All empirical evidence and stats are based upon individual surveys, so just because I have not created a studied in a controlled environment to satisfy your obesession with facts from biased studies makes my experiences no less true.

  • Lorrie

    I know it would be comforting and convienent to put me in a box and assume that I am a tea party activist, that somehow I am paid by the Koch machine to respond to random blogs about non-conservative issues or that I must be a white republican posing as someone black, or that I must hate all immigrants, or I must feel that all immigrants should go back home, or that I dont have compassion and love for the immigrant, or that i dont know my hisorty, or that I dont know whoat brought the immigrants here in the first place, but it would simply be untrue.  I am a black woman, an activist, a writer, a single mother of three strong black young men, born of parents born of slaves, parents who are former farmworkers, from a two parent household, raised democrat, will continue to vote for President Barak Obama, supporting many of his policies, I put myself through college (over half was paid for by academic scholarships), I have a strong voice that has been silenced by group think, silenced for fear I would not survive, silenced because I didnt not want to make anyone upset.  My boys and I all had dreadlocs at one time because I wanted them to learn to love themselves just as God made them and not accept the belief that they were not good enough because they were not blond, blued eyed with pale skin.  I am beautiful and I continue to wear my hair naturally, I refuse to bend to the forces of assimilation – whether you refuse to see it or not and I do not need another woman to define or outline my experience for me. I love my black man, which is one of the reasons why I loved your blog and subscribed to it – I grew up watching School Daze over and over and over again – the site theme I thought was genius.  I respect the immigrant, legal and illegal because they are human and deserve basic rights which is why I am a board member of a local organization that champions the rights of farmworkers- I believe they should live decently, with basic healthcare and education, I believe that whole heartedly, but I do not  and will not ignore racism, no matter the form when I see it.  I am unique, my experiences are unique and we will agree to disagree and I will respectfully end my end of this discussion since I have not found a willingness to understand the various concerns and nuiances that exist in any issue, founded or unfounded.  I have been attacked on this blog even in my attempt to be civil and honest and transparent – vulnerable because it is difficult to bring up an issue that has effected you even when you know people wont like it or cannot understand how ironic it is.  I did not expect that you would allow BlueEyes to continue to rant and cuss and insult me, but I again, I have not found a brother, so I say all this to say, for now I will walk away.

  • You’re not only ignorant, you’re a liar or an illiterate. I cited SEVERAL studies, TWO of which were economic, peer-reviewed analyses. The more you respond here, the more I am convinced that it is your stupidity that that stops you from getting an entry-level position.

  • Lorrie

    Interesting facts by the way…I will be reading more on that in the future.

  • Lorrie

    Really RIPPa??  You are going to let a blued eyed wanna-be white Puerto Rican male on your blog call another blogger names and not moderate it?  A black woman no less.  If I were a white woman someone would have come to my defense a long time ago and you know that is a fact.  You have lost all respect in my eyes.  It is one thing to have a strong position on the issues and not agree its another thing altogether to allow insults that are uncalled for.

  • Yes!

  • Lorrie

    Not that I need to prove any damn thing to you but read this article below printed by Los Angeles Times…,0,3008802.story
     …notice the part that says exactly what I was saying, “Latinos have a relatively large share of jobs – hotels, food services, healthcare and manufacturing [jobs], for example – are seeing more robust job growth.”  It also says that, “While they make up only 15% of the country’s workforce, Latinos have racked up half the employment gains.”
    It goes on to talk about a Latino worker who lost work and found a job with enough money to support his family and buy a house.  He states:  “I dont smoke, I dont do drugs, Im bilingual…but its not happening.”  But that all changed for him.  Notice he said, I am bilingual.  This has been an important up-coming skill for the last 10 to 20 years, the feds have been predicting it, which is why I am conversationally fluent on an academic level and made sure I took language skill classes for most of my education beginning in middle school and continuing through college.  I did not make this up, growing up in Southern California at career days the employers all told us that we must learn a second language and that Spanish was it.
    The article points out Latinos are, “the fastest growing segment of the U.S. population,” This is a concern for disenfranchised blacks that are working to compete for the same jobs.  Whether you agree or accept it or not this is what is happening in the states listed in the article: “population growth in California, Texas and Florida, but also Ohio and other states.”   These issues as I pointed out before would not be something non-ag eastern U.S. states would understand, it is specific to certain states.  There is never a one-size fits all solution or conclusion to any one issue for everyone.
    In addition, notice that in California how disproportionately high the unemployment rate is here.  For blacks it is the worst.  What happens is that ag-jobs bring undocumented works, those workers over a period of time 10-20 years have children who are citizens who are educated in US. Those children are bilingual and compete in workforce against non-bilingual workers.  The more the increase of Latino citizens, the more demand for a bilingual workforce in all sectors NOT just ag.  I am not saying we should not allow them to work, I am saying that it is unfair to my children to not be allowed the same edge.  If we are educating Latino children to speak English we should be educating non-Latino children to speak the predominate language and in this case here, it is Spanish as well as English so the work field remains equally competitive.
    I do not agree with the article that Latinos, “might be more willing to take low-wage, temporary jobs.”  This is so not true for me or any of the black people I live work and fellowship with.  This statement in the article speculative and antedotal.  I guess I am not the only one who uses them right??  Out here the Human Resources hiring managers are Latinos and they hire their own before they are willing to hire a black person- that is certainly my opinion, of which there is a grain of truth.
    Keep in mind that the U.S. Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Economic news release admits that the statistics may or may not include undocumented workers, so the number may be further increased due to work completed under the table, not being counted.
    Also, as the article points out, this trend also has political implications and RIPPA although you are gun-ho immigration and I believe everyone should have a right to life liberty and to live decently if they work hard – but you must understand that all immigrants are not kumbaya with other brown skinned immigrants.  Your blog platform allows for the possibility of real discussion surrounding these issues.  I hope you at least try to make an objective review of the issue I brought up and incite REAL discussion because as you saw NOONE black agreed with blue eyes.
    If you really wanted facts you would seek them out instead of just calling someone a liar.

  • Lorrie, a third grader can read that article and understand that it isn’t saying what you’ve been saying, or arguing for several weeks now. The article describes Latino workers in the building and construction industry — an indistry largely dominated by said demographic — that are gaining employment in OTHER industries they ALDO have been dominating.

    Nice try, but the article clearly points this shift out. It
    is disingenuous to use this article that points out in particular as representative of the whole. The gains as they have made are in low-paying, low-skilled service industry jobs – jobs they have always done.

    This from the article:

    “So far,* *Latinos are the only demographic group whose employment numbers have returned to pre-recession levels. The latest Latino jobless rate of 10.5% remains higher than the overall rate of 8.3% for the nation and 7.4% for whites, partly reflecting their large immigrant population (foreign-born U.S. workers tend to have higher unemployment because of a variety of factors) as well as education and skill levels.

    The construction industry remains weak, but other sectors in which Latinos have a relatively large share of jobs — hotels, food services, healthcare and manufacturing, for example — are seeing more robust job growth.

    Mining support services, where Latinos make up about a fifth of the
    workers, are expanding employment significantly. And, because Latinos
    account for a relatively small share of workers in the public sector, they
    aren’t bearing the brunt of deep cuts in government jobs.”

    FYI, the Public sector is accountable for more Black employment than any
    other ethnic minority group!

    More from the SAME article you wanted me to read:

    “There are other reasons, experts say, why Latinos are faring better than
    some other groups. For one thing, they might be more willing to take
    low-wage, temporary jobs. And they tend to be more mobile, willing to move
    from one county to another to get a job.

    Some of the decline in Latino unemployment reflects the fact that many
    discouraged workers have stopped looking for jobs. Also, with jobs
    generally hard to find, fewer people are moving to the U.S. from Latin
    America, and more are returning home. The result is a smaller pool of
    workers who can more easily get employment.

    As with other temporary workers, some Latinos may find that short-term jobs
    are a path to full-time work. But for many others, low-wage, temporary jobs
    don’t offer much opportunity for advancement or for the kind of income
    needed to support a family.”

    Clearly, you have a reading comprehension problem. Either that, or you’re
    just too stubborn to admit when you’re wrong. Even worse, is that you make
    an argument but aren’t able to provide any evidence to support it. As long
    as this discussion has been going on, if I were you, I’d just quit and duck
    my head in the sand after this one. I would because at this time, you’re
    only making yourself look like a fool.

  • concernedcitizen

    Let me just say this…Aren’t we all immigrants?