Comments on: Myth-Buster: Immigration, Internalized Oppression, & Black Unemployment http://www.rippdemup.com/2011/12/myth-buster-immigration-internalized-oppression-black-unemployment/ It's like a jungle sometimes it makes me wonder... Wed, 22 Aug 2012 04:42:00 +0000 hourly 1 By: RiPPa http://www.rippdemup.com/2011/12/myth-buster-immigration-internalized-oppression-black-unemployment/#comment-1716 RiPPa Mon, 06 Feb 2012 22:10:00 +0000 http://rippdemup.com/?p=3514#comment-1716 Lorrie, a third grader can read that article and understand that it isn't saying what you've been saying, or arguing for several weeks now. The article describes Latino workers in the building and construction industry -- an indistry largely dominated by said demographic -- that are gaining employment in OTHER industries they ALDO have been dominating. Nice try, but the article clearly points this shift out. It is disingenuous to use this article that points out in particular as representative of the whole. The gains as they have made are in low-paying, low-skilled service industry jobs - jobs they have always done. This from the article: "So far,* *Latinos are the only demographic group whose employment numbers have returned to pre-recession levels. The latest Latino jobless rate of 10.5% remains higher than the overall rate of 8.3% for the nation and 7.4% for whites, partly reflecting their large immigrant population (foreign-born U.S. workers tend to have higher unemployment because of a variety of factors) as well as education and skill levels. The construction industry remains weak, but other sectors in which Latinos have a relatively large share of jobs — hotels, food services, healthcare and manufacturing, for example — are seeing more robust job growth. Mining support services, where Latinos make up about a fifth of the workers, are expanding employment significantly. And, because Latinos account for a relatively small share of workers in the public sector, they aren't bearing the brunt of deep cuts in government jobs." FYI, the Public sector is accountable for more Black employment than any other ethnic minority group! More from the SAME article you wanted me to read: "There are other reasons, experts say, why Latinos are faring better than some other groups. For one thing, they might be more willing to take low-wage, temporary jobs. And they tend to be more mobile, willing to move from one county to another to get a job. Some of the decline in Latino unemployment reflects the fact that many discouraged workers have stopped looking for jobs. Also, with jobs generally hard to find, fewer people are moving to the U.S. from Latin America, and more are returning home. The result is a smaller pool of workers who can more easily get employment. As with other temporary workers, some Latinos may find that short-term jobs are a path to full-time work. But for many others, low-wage, temporary jobs don't offer much opportunity for advancement or for the kind of income needed to support a family." Clearly, you have a reading comprehension problem. Either that, or you're just too stubborn to admit when you're wrong. Even worse, is that you make an argument but aren't able to provide any evidence to support it. As long as this discussion has been going on, if I were you, I'd just quit and duck my head in the sand after this one. I would because at this time, you're only making yourself look like a fool. Lorrie, a third grader can read that article and understand that it isn’t saying what you’ve been saying, or arguing for several weeks now. The article describes Latino workers in the building and construction industry — an indistry largely dominated by said demographic — that are gaining employment in OTHER industries they ALDO have been dominating.

Nice try, but the article clearly points this shift out. It
is disingenuous to use this article that points out in particular as representative of the whole. The gains as they have made are in low-paying, low-skilled service industry jobs – jobs they have always done.

This from the article:

“So far,* *Latinos are the only demographic group whose employment numbers have returned to pre-recession levels. The latest Latino jobless rate of 10.5% remains higher than the overall rate of 8.3% for the nation and 7.4% for whites, partly reflecting their large immigrant population (foreign-born U.S. workers tend to have higher unemployment because of a variety of factors) as well as education and skill levels.

The construction industry remains weak, but other sectors in which Latinos have a relatively large share of jobs — hotels, food services, healthcare and manufacturing, for example — are seeing more robust job growth.

Mining support services, where Latinos make up about a fifth of the
workers, are expanding employment significantly. And, because Latinos
account for a relatively small share of workers in the public sector, they
aren’t bearing the brunt of deep cuts in government jobs.”

FYI, the Public sector is accountable for more Black employment than any
other ethnic minority group!

More from the SAME article you wanted me to read:

“There are other reasons, experts say, why Latinos are faring better than
some other groups. For one thing, they might be more willing to take
low-wage, temporary jobs. And they tend to be more mobile, willing to move
from one county to another to get a job.

Some of the decline in Latino unemployment reflects the fact that many
discouraged workers have stopped looking for jobs. Also, with jobs
generally hard to find, fewer people are moving to the U.S. from Latin
America, and more are returning home. The result is a smaller pool of
workers who can more easily get employment.

As with other temporary workers, some Latinos may find that short-term jobs
are a path to full-time work. But for many others, low-wage, temporary jobs
don’t offer much opportunity for advancement or for the kind of income
needed to support a family.”

Clearly, you have a reading comprehension problem. Either that, or you’re
just too stubborn to admit when you’re wrong. Even worse, is that you make
an argument but aren’t able to provide any evidence to support it. As long
as this discussion has been going on, if I were you, I’d just quit and duck
my head in the sand after this one. I would because at this time, you’re
only making yourself look like a fool.

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By: Lorrie http://www.rippdemup.com/2011/12/myth-buster-immigration-internalized-oppression-black-unemployment/#comment-1714 Lorrie Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:39:00 +0000 http://rippdemup.com/?p=3514#comment-1714 Here is your damn statistics! Not that I need to prove any damn thing to you but read this article below printed by Los Angeles Times...  http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-latino-jobs-20120205,0,3008802.story  ...notice the part that says exactly what I was saying, "Latinos have a relatively large share of jobs - hotels, food services, healthcare and manufacturing [jobs], for example - are seeing more robust job growth."  It also says that, “While they make up only 15% of the country’s workforce, Latinos have racked up half the employment gains.” It goes on to talk about a Latino worker who lost work and found a job with enough money to support his family and buy a house.  He states:  "I dont smoke, I dont do drugs, Im bilingual...but its not happening."  But that all changed for him.  Notice he said, I am bilingual.  This has been an important up-coming skill for the last 10 to 20 years, the feds have been predicting it, which is why I am conversationally fluent on an academic level and made sure I took language skill classes for most of my education beginning in middle school and continuing through college.  I did not make this up, growing up in Southern California at career days the employers all told us that we must learn a second language and that Spanish was it. The article points out Latinos are, "the fastest growing segment of the U.S. population," This is a concern for disenfranchised blacks that are working to compete for the same jobs.  Whether you agree or accept it or not this is what is happening in the states listed in the article: “population growth in California, Texas and Florida, but also Ohio and other states.”   These issues as I pointed out before would not be something non-ag eastern U.S. states would understand, it is specific to certain states.  There is never a one-size fits all solution or conclusion to any one issue for everyone. In addition, notice that in California how disproportionately high the unemployment rate is here.  For blacks it is the worst.  What happens is that ag-jobs bring undocumented works, those workers over a period of time 10-20 years have children who are citizens who are educated in US. Those children are bilingual and compete in workforce against non-bilingual workers.  The more the increase of Latino citizens, the more demand for a bilingual workforce in all sectors NOT just ag.  I am not saying we should not allow them to work, I am saying that it is unfair to my children to not be allowed the same edge.  If we are educating Latino children to speak English we should be educating non-Latino children to speak the predominate language and in this case here, it is Spanish as well as English so the work field remains equally competitive. I do not agree with the article that Latinos, “might be more willing to take low-wage, temporary jobs.”  This is so not true for me or any of the black people I live work and fellowship with.  This statement in the article speculative and antedotal.  I guess I am not the only one who uses them right??  Out here the Human Resources hiring managers are Latinos and they hire their own before they are willing to hire a black person- that is certainly my opinion, of which there is a grain of truth. Keep in mind that the U.S. Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Economic news release admits that the statistics may or may not include undocumented workers, so the number may be further increased due to work completed under the table, not being counted. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.htm Also, as the article points out, this trend also has political implications and RIPPA although you are gun-ho immigration and I believe everyone should have a right to life liberty and to live decently if they work hard – but you must understand that all immigrants are not kumbaya with other brown skinned immigrants.  Your blog platform allows for the possibility of real discussion surrounding these issues.  I hope you at least try to make an objective review of the issue I brought up and incite REAL discussion because as you saw NOONE black agreed with you blue eyes. If you really wanted facts you would seek them out instead of just calling someone a liar.   Here is your damn statistics!

Not that I need to prove any damn thing to you but read this article below printed by Los Angeles Times… 
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-latino-jobs-20120205,0,3008802.story
 …notice the part that says exactly what I was saying, “Latinos have a relatively large share of jobs – hotels, food services, healthcare and manufacturing [jobs], for example – are seeing more robust job growth.”  It also says that, “While they make up only 15% of the country’s workforce, Latinos have racked up half the employment gains.”
It goes on to talk about a Latino worker who lost work and found a job with enough money to support his family and buy a house.  He states:  “I dont smoke, I dont do drugs, Im bilingual…but its not happening.”  But that all changed for him.  Notice he said, I am bilingual.  This has been an important up-coming skill for the last 10 to 20 years, the feds have been predicting it, which is why I am conversationally fluent on an academic level and made sure I took language skill classes for most of my education beginning in middle school and continuing through college.  I did not make this up, growing up in Southern California at career days the employers all told us that we must learn a second language and that Spanish was it.
The article points out Latinos are, “the fastest growing segment of the U.S. population,” This is a concern for disenfranchised blacks that are working to compete for the same jobs.  Whether you agree or accept it or not this is what is happening in the states listed in the article: “population growth in California, Texas and Florida, but also Ohio and other states.”   These issues as I pointed out before would not be something non-ag eastern U.S. states would understand, it is specific to certain states.  There is never a one-size fits all solution or conclusion to any one issue for everyone.
In addition, notice that in California how disproportionately high the unemployment rate is here.  For blacks it is the worst.  What happens is that ag-jobs bring undocumented works, those workers over a period of time 10-20 years have children who are citizens who are educated in US. Those children are bilingual and compete in workforce against non-bilingual workers.  The more the increase of Latino citizens, the more demand for a bilingual workforce in all sectors NOT just ag.  I am not saying we should not allow them to work, I am saying that it is unfair to my children to not be allowed the same edge.  If we are educating Latino children to speak English we should be educating non-Latino children to speak the predominate language and in this case here, it is Spanish as well as English so the work field remains equally competitive.
I do not agree with the article that Latinos, “might be more willing to take low-wage, temporary jobs.”  This is so not true for me or any of the black people I live work and fellowship with.  This statement in the article speculative and antedotal.  I guess I am not the only one who uses them right??  Out here the Human Resources hiring managers are Latinos and they hire their own before they are willing to hire a black person- that is certainly my opinion, of which there is a grain of truth.
Keep in mind that the U.S. Dept. of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Economic news release admits that the statistics may or may not include undocumented workers, so the number may be further increased due to work completed under the table, not being counted.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.htm
Also, as the article points out, this trend also has political implications and RIPPA although you are gun-ho immigration and I believe everyone should have a right to life liberty and to live decently if they work hard – but you must understand that all immigrants are not kumbaya with other brown skinned immigrants.  Your blog platform allows for the possibility of real discussion surrounding these issues.  I hope you at least try to make an objective review of the issue I brought up and incite REAL discussion because as you saw NOONE black agreed with you blue eyes.
If you really wanted facts you would seek them out instead of just calling someone a liar.
 

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By: Lorrie http://www.rippdemup.com/2011/12/myth-buster-immigration-internalized-oppression-black-unemployment/#comment-1342 Lorrie Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:14:00 +0000 http://rippdemup.com/?p=3514#comment-1342 Did you notice that no one supports you except RIPPa?  I am not the only one who has suffered racism by the likes of you and we do not need statistics to prove it. Did you notice that no one supports you except RIPPa?  I am not the only one who has suffered racism by the likes of you and we do not need statistics to prove it.

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By: Eddie Blue-Eyes http://www.rippdemup.com/2011/12/myth-buster-immigration-internalized-oppression-black-unemployment/#comment-1252 Eddie Blue-Eyes Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:04:00 +0000 http://rippdemup.com/?p=3514#comment-1252 PROVE it. Otherwise, you're just a bigot. PROVE it. Otherwise, you’re just a bigot.

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By: Eddie Blue-Eyes http://www.rippdemup.com/2011/12/myth-buster-immigration-internalized-oppression-black-unemployment/#comment-1251 Eddie Blue-Eyes Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:03:00 +0000 http://rippdemup.com/?p=3514#comment-1251 I pity you. Really, you're pathetic. Again, all this blah blah blah and you still haven't shown or proven ANYTHING. YOU STATED THAT IMMIGRANTS TAKE AWAY FROM YOUR ABILITY TO GET A JOB. This is FALSE. I have provided extensive evidence that this isn';t true. IN FACT, the opposite is true. You said that Latino/as have no interest in learning English. THIS IS FALSE. Latin/as attain English proficiency at the same rates or better than previous waves of immigration. I have provided evidence for this. You have stated that earlier, native-born Latino/a people have negative views about recent or undocumented immigrants. This is NOT true, as study after study, voting patterns, and the collective EXPRESSED views of the Latino/a community is OVERWHELMINGLY in solidarity with recent and undocumented immigrants. Holding and believing in negative stereotypes about Latino/as or any ethnic/ racial group IS bigotry. And your beliefs ARE prejudiced. and that's YOU. YOU'RE the one blathering about negative ethnic stereotypes and then you get your panties in a wad when someone like me calls YOU one it. My blog is synthesis of THE FACTS regarding this issue. If you have anything other than your bigotry that addresses or invalidates these FACTS, then have at it. You don't have to be an activist, nor do you have to claim to speak for all people, all you have to do is PROVE your bigoted assertions. If you can't, then you're just a self-loathing, blind bigot who has co-opted the language of white supremacists. don't like being called a bigot? STOP acting like one. I pity you. Really, you’re pathetic. Again, all this blah blah blah and you still haven’t shown or proven ANYTHING.

YOU STATED THAT IMMIGRANTS TAKE AWAY FROM YOUR ABILITY TO GET A JOB. This is FALSE. I have provided extensive evidence that this isn’;t true. IN FACT, the opposite is true.

You said that Latino/as have no interest in learning English.

THIS IS FALSE. Latin/as attain English proficiency at the same rates or better than previous waves of immigration. I have provided evidence for this.

You have stated that earlier, native-born Latino/a people have negative views about recent or undocumented immigrants. This is NOT true, as study after study, voting patterns, and the collective EXPRESSED views of the Latino/a community is OVERWHELMINGLY in solidarity with recent and undocumented immigrants.

Holding and believing in negative stereotypes about Latino/as or any ethnic/ racial group IS bigotry. And your beliefs ARE prejudiced. and that’s YOU.

YOU’RE the one blathering about negative ethnic stereotypes and then you get your panties in a wad when someone like me calls YOU one it.

My blog is synthesis of THE FACTS regarding this issue. If you have anything other than your bigotry that addresses or invalidates these FACTS, then have at it.

You don’t have to be an activist, nor do you have to claim to speak for all people, all you have to do is PROVE your bigoted assertions. If you can’t, then you’re just a self-loathing, blind bigot who has co-opted the language of white supremacists.

don’t like being called a bigot? STOP acting like one.

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By: Lorrie http://www.rippdemup.com/2011/12/myth-buster-immigration-internalized-oppression-black-unemployment/#comment-1245 Lorrie Tue, 20 Dec 2011 21:07:00 +0000 http://rippdemup.com/?p=3514#comment-1245 If we had this discussion face to face this conversation would have went much differently.  The racial politics in Southern California, is not Berkley, is not Detroit, is not Florida or any other place mentioned with statistics generated by sources with their own agenda and stories to tell.  Thats what real discussion is supposed to be about telling our stories from our perspectives.  Not attacking someone because they see an issue differently.  Not attempting to cut them off at the knees because they challenge your thinking or request them to go find statistics to back up their claims because they have to be lying.    Again, I am a black single mother of three boys, whose parents were farmworkers, with solid credentials who has faced racism and discrimination in employment by Latinos which is a situation created by the dramatic increase of Latinos in my area, directly as a result of immigration and the language social barriers created as a result.  I never once demonized immigrants, I never said immigration was bad, I never said immigrants didnt deserve healthcare, I never said immigrants should not be allowed to work in America or live here, I never said any of that.  If you guys had actually asked more questions and attempted to find common ground you would have found a sister in the struggle.  I am no anti-immigration activist as the article implies and neither am I wrong about my experiences however I am open to a different perspective but not aggressive and negative political propaganda and rhetoric.   All you guys keep saying is I am wrong, I must be lying, Im bullshitting?, I am a fuckin idiot bigot, Im guilting you, I am a white supremacist, I am a dumb mother fucker, I am a dumb fuck, I should shut the fuck up, that I purchased my six degrees, I am willfully ignorant, I am a hate mongorer, Im dumb sperm?- really? Wow, all so eloquently delivered by the author of this article, very academic, well thought and researched. You then go on to say, “Well, I'm sick and tired of Black people and other people of color expressing their own internalized racism and projections and then wearing the "I'm black" flag.”  I don’t care what you are sick of.  Have you ever thought to consider that blacks suffer racism from all sides???  Not just whites?  I am not expressing internalized racism, I am shouting about racism against me!  You are the dumb fuck (since you guys like cussin so damn much), you are the racist and you have called me everything short of a “N***er.”  Fuck you BlueEyes and your mis- directed, ill-delivered rage.   Now you say I must hate myself?  Then you get mad because I repeat myself?  (I am saying the same thing!)  All because I don’t agree with you?  Because my experience differs from yours? All I can do is share my experiences, I do not blog full time, one of my degrees is in Journalism, I understand your desire for attributed facts but I cannot create a term paper at your will right now – maybe at some point in the future. You say numbers don’t lie and your right numbers do not lie but the people who use them do.  My experience means nothing because I don’t have a study to pull out of my ass to prove it to you?  I need to find direct coorelations other than my own to prove my experience?  Go back and read what I said, my words were taken grossly out of context.  You think I hate beautiful Caribbean men and women?  You think I hate Latinos?  You think I want them to leave America?  You think I am personally attacking you?  Fuck no   Then you bring up the Three Strikes Your Out law as if that erases all my experiences because well hey don’t focus on immigration because black men are getting put in jail – wtf?  Yes, I do believe black men and women of our past should be given credit for their blood shed in the civil rights movement and if it was not for them no one would have the rights we take advantage of today and it does not get said enough.  You make my point for me, “Pitts argues that African Americans should not allow themselves to be pitted against another ethnic and racial group who themselves are struggling for equality and improved conditions in their communities (here). This argument bears repeating when examining the motives of anti-immigrant groups who claim to speak for native-born workers.”  You are right, they SHOULD not, but they do and it exists whether we like it or not.  That was my point exactly.  Civilization needs to recover from your ungodly spin on my original point.   I didn’t blog on this site to speak for blacks of the United States, just as this blog is not a representation of all Caribbean blacks and Puerto Ricans in America, your expectations of me regarding my opinions are ridiculous, you have not even attempted to really address any of the things I mentioned in the other blog other than to say –you’re a liar and here is the study to prove it – then create two more blogs to re-address it, re-hash it but in a fashion skewed by your own biases.  Give me a break, you get fucking real, the plain truth is that I am not a part of some group of activists, I am an individual with a voice and my own opinion.  I had no idea that hate anti-activist groups existed and from what I have seen, I am against them – everyone deserves basic rights and everyone should be so luckly as not to be at the bottom of the racial totum pole. If we had this discussion face to face this conversation would have went much differently.  The racial politics in Southern California, is not Berkley, is not Detroit, is not Florida or any other place mentioned with statistics generated by sources with their own agenda and stories to tell.  Thats what real discussion is supposed to be about telling our stories from our perspectives.  Not attacking someone because they see an issue differently.  Not attempting to cut them off at the knees because they challenge your thinking or request them to go find statistics to back up their claims because they have to be lying. 
 
Again, I am a black single mother of three boys, whose parents were farmworkers, with solid credentials who has faced racism and discrimination in employment by Latinos which is a situation created by the dramatic increase of Latinos in my area, directly as a result of immigration and the language social barriers created as a result.  I never once demonized immigrants, I never said immigration was bad, I never said immigrants didnt deserve healthcare, I never said immigrants should not be allowed to work in America or live here, I never said any of that.  If you guys had actually asked more questions and attempted to find common ground you would have found a sister in the struggle.  I am no anti-immigration activist as the article implies and neither am I wrong about my experiences however I am open to a different perspective but not aggressive and negative political propaganda and rhetoric.
 
All you guys keep saying is I am wrong, I must be lying, Im bullshitting?, I am a fuckin idiot bigot, Im guilting you, I am a white supremacist, I am a dumb mother fucker, I am a dumb fuck, I should shut the fuck up, that I purchased my six degrees, I am willfully ignorant, I am a hate mongorer, Im dumb sperm?- really? Wow, all so eloquently delivered by the author of this article, very academic, well thought and researched. You then go on to say, “Well, I’m sick and tired of Black people and other people of color expressing their own internalized racism and projections and then wearing the “I’m black” flag.”  I don’t care what you are sick of.  Have you ever thought to consider that blacks suffer racism from all sides???  Not just whites?  I am not expressing internalized racism, I am shouting about racism against me!  You are the dumb fuck (since you guys like cussin so damn much), you are the racist and you have called me everything short of a “N***er.”  Fuck you BlueEyes and your mis- directed, ill-delivered rage.
 
Now you say I must hate myself?  Then you get mad because I repeat myself?  (I am saying the same thing!)  All because I don’t agree with you?  Because my experience differs from yours? All I can do is share my experiences, I do not blog full time, one of my degrees is in Journalism, I understand your desire for attributed facts but I cannot create a term paper at your will right now – maybe at some point in the future. You say numbers don’t lie and your right numbers do not lie but the people who use them do.  My experience means nothing because I don’t have a study to pull out of my ass to prove it to you?  I need to find direct coorelations other than my own to prove my experience?  Go back and read what I said, my words were taken grossly out of context.  You think I hate beautiful Caribbean men and women?  You think I hate Latinos?  You think I want them to leave America?  You think I am personally attacking you?  Fuck no
 
Then you bring up the Three Strikes Your Out law as if that erases all my experiences because well hey don’t focus on immigration because black men are getting put in jail – wtf?  Yes, I do believe black men and women of our past should be given credit for their blood shed in the civil rights movement and if it was not for them no one would have the rights we take advantage of today and it does not get said enough.  You make my point for me, “Pitts argues that African Americans should not allow themselves to be pitted against another ethnic and racial group who themselves are struggling for equality and improved conditions in their communities (here). This argument bears repeating when examining the motives of anti-immigrant groups who claim to speak for native-born workers.”  You are right, they SHOULD not, but they do and it exists whether we like it or not.  That was my point exactly.  Civilization needs to recover from your ungodly spin on my original point.
 
I didn’t blog on this site to speak for blacks of the United States, just as this blog is not a representation of all Caribbean blacks and Puerto Ricans in America, your expectations of me regarding my opinions are ridiculous, you have not even attempted to really address any of the things I mentioned in the other blog other than to say –you’re a liar and here is the study to prove it – then create two more blogs to re-address it, re-hash it but in a fashion skewed by your own biases.  Give me a break, you get fucking real, the plain truth is that I am not a part of some group of activists, I am an individual with a voice and my own opinion.  I had no idea that hate anti-activist groups existed and from what I have seen, I am against them – everyone deserves basic rights and everyone should be so luckly as not to be at the bottom of the racial totum pole.

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By: RiPPa http://www.rippdemup.com/2011/12/myth-buster-immigration-internalized-oppression-black-unemployment/#comment-1244 RiPPa Tue, 20 Dec 2011 19:45:00 +0000 http://rippdemup.com/?p=3514#comment-1244 Prove it otherwise then.... Prove it otherwise then….

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By: Lorrie http://www.rippdemup.com/2011/12/myth-buster-immigration-internalized-oppression-black-unemployment/#comment-1243 Lorrie Tue, 20 Dec 2011 19:35:00 +0000 http://rippdemup.com/?p=3514#comment-1243 Its not a Myth. Its not a Myth.

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